Ron

here is what i had sent Mr. Dave,

Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 3:24 PM

Subject: your cd, bootlegs, etc

Hi ,

I have been listening to rock for about 35 years. I only recently came across your music via the world of trading bootlegs. Here are the shows of yours I have on boot.

Lindley, David 22-Oct-02 Minneapolis, MN CEDAR CULTURAL CENTRE 2 Tradeable ( see comments ) really nice sounding show. I do not have set list,hence date and venue theoretically could be incorrect.
Lindley, David w/ El Rayo X 30-Jun-81 New York, NY THE BOTTOM LINE CLUB 2 Tradeable effin awesome show.
Lindley, David w/ El Rayo X 28-Aug-82 Loreley, Germany RockPalast 2 Tradeable ( see comments ) One of the funnest shows I have heard. Sound is decent , not excellent, yet show is just awesome. Set list is numbered differently than I have, yet I don’t think this is a common show. I have a nice link for this show as well, so feel free to ask for it.
Lindley, David w/ El Rayo X 20-Nov-85 Santa Cruz, CA CATALYST CLUB 1 Tradeable cool cd, okay sound. If looking for Lindley, why not ? Nice song selection. This mutha is one freaking good artist.
Lindley, David w/ Wally Ingram 20-Mar-98 Breman, Germany BREMINALE FESTIVAL 1 Tradeable ( see comments ) analyser had classic mp3 signature at 16000. I could not detect microclicks or such., sound is good, definitely not great. Please take with knowledge of above.

Last night I went to a friends house. He goes, " I have to play you this cd I just bought "(from your site, he has lots of your music, and he isnt the one who traded me the boots). So he throws on "Twango Bango III". It was awesome. His kids ages 11 and 8 were singing along. I mentioned how i was just introduced to your music and that I most certainly needed to go buy some of your stuff. He then brought up your views on bootlegging and such ( i read the stuff in your cd and some of the words). I had no idea that you were against bootlegging and such (of which if you dont mind I will discuss later on). My primary bootleg collection is Springsteen, yet it gets quite eclectic in my selections of artists. I make it a point to never barter or sell or profit the boots, but merely trade for the love of the art. I also try to make it a point to support the artist financially via buying merchandise and buying concert tickets. I have had lenghty discussions with some of Springsteen's band members and they are cool with the trading. I guess that is their moral perogative. I also respect your right to not have your music traded, passed on, etc etc , as you feel it is a personal violation. I am a member of a private internet group and we had a conversation last night, based on my recent discovery of an artist who i am blown away by (you), who is very much against bootlegging. With that said, I would like your advice on what you think I should do with the stuff I have on my list (see above) and how I can cure a situation I did not know was morally wrong 24 hours ago. It will all be mentioned below. Anyway here is some text of the back and forths of what we wrote.

The following is the discussions we had. If you have any advice for me, suggestions (including which cds to purchase, etc etc), please let me know. If you respond and would prefer that your response be kept private, please just let me know. If you do read this long winded email, thank you. If you don't, I thank you as well and apologize for any discomfort I may have caused or any intrusion. I feel so fortunate that I was introduced to your music only months ago, and without trading that would never have happened. If you would like to see my trade list, please just say so, and I will email to you. My trading is done only with intent of sharing and good karma, perhaps my execution is misguided and needs to be corrected.

thanks you and with respect,

ron redfield

I wrote

I hope you all don't mind me posting this. Supposedly this is an
email from June 2001 from David Lindley . Thought you all might be
interested in seeing his alleged view. Heck, for all I know this can
be an "urban legend fable".

>> David Lindley here:
Amazing! I was sent your site and expected to see a
few things on there of mine but Holy Shit! Videos too. Considering the
fact that you are probably aware that I really don't like anyone
taping
my shows you seem to have succeeded in doing just that. Wow, I am
impressed. So . .I was wondering how you yourself feel about having
all
this stuff up there for "trade' or whatever it is that's done with
these tapes (excuse me, C.D.'s)? Since you are probably aware that I'm
not really into having all this stuff out there floating around,
wearing all those songs out before their time, do youever take that
into consideration or do you just ignore the fact that I really don't
like having my shows taped? Just interested in knowing that. There
are
a lot of people out there who want everything I ever did and I think
I'll start referring them to your site. I see here that you have a
lot
of Ry's stuff too and you KNOW how he feels about that. Let me tell
you
what it's like: It's like having someone break into your house and go
into your refrigerator and drink all the beer. or eat all the food.
It's not so much the food and beer being gone but the fact that the
guy
broke into the house while I was asleep and I didn't know it. That's
what it feels like. It has nothing to do with loss of sales or
publishing or any of that it's the fact that the house was broken
into.So . . . just thought you'd like to know that. By the way, I have
some of Frizz's songs on tape, some live and some in the studio. He's
dead now it won't really matter if his stuff gets out there. Wanna
trade? D.L.
<<

peace,

ron

Someone responded

Sounds to me like DL's problem with trading is mainly one of ego. If I was in
his position I'd be honored that somebody took my work so seriously.

I responded back

I don't like to get involved in giving my opinion in controversial
subjects. But, it is his art, and isnt he entitled to have an
opinion on how his art should be displayed. It would be interesting
to hear Bruce discuss it. I had a lengthy conversation with a band
member regarding bootlegging. It was his "unofficial" view that it
was all cool, as long as no financial profitting is involved. I just
find the whole thing interesting, and I most certainly can respect
David's views. Now i just need to decide if I should remove his work
from my list. I should really go out and buy a cd or 2 of his. His
new album he has a song about bootleggers, he also asks that if you
illegally burn the studio cd , that you send cash of 5 bucks to the
po box :-)

anyway, there is a speckle of my 2 cents.

A. Some other person responded

I guess it's a good thing I'm not a big David Lindley
trader :-)

There are a number of things that might be said in reply
to this e-mail if you were the site-owner and/or trading
participants to whom his mail was addressed. One would be
to voluntarily do as Spirit suggested and move ahead of
any possible cease-and-desist order. If it were me, I'd
respond (as honestly as the circumstances might permit)
that I wasn't aware of his feelings and that I didn't
appreciate his sacarstic tone and attempt to inflict
guilt on people who are, after all, great fans and
*supporters* of his music. At David's level, alienating
fans might not be the best way to go...I'd emphasize that
I'd be happy to post a more fan-friendly and less intense
letter addressing his concerns, and voluntarily remove
the website in favor of a list-serve where the activities
of traders would be less visible, at least, and try to
discuss rationally the issues at hand: fan satisfaction
versus artist's views on unauthorized recordings. I'd
emphasize the positive effects of such recordings,
including increased circulation of his music leading
to increased attendance at his shows, purchase of
official product, etc, and point him to the list on etree.org
of over 150 artists who officially condone audience recording,
and speak of it as a trend embraced by artists of his own
stature and caliber. I'd ask him what he thinks would be the best
answer for both *him* and *his fans* in regard to these issues.

Naturally, the unasked question here is "what if Bruce were
to issue similar comments"?

That, of course, is a bridge to be crossed if we ever
come to it. The fact that most comments he has made
officially tend to be through Landau suggests that
he'd like to distance himself from any bashing of
his fans and their dedication to collecting all his
shows. Unless he gets down and dirty with us about
it as Lindley apparently did in the e-mail reproduced
here, we can only go by what he has said in public
or through Landau, which amounts to being uncomfortable
with and non-supportive of such recordings, both over
the issues of quality available (more an argument against
boot sales than trades - ie, the return on a fan's
investment) and economics, ie, the "theft" of
intellectual property. These have always been offset by a
very forgiving and humor-laced attitude in comments
at shows, so it's difficult to think Bruce feels as
strongly as Lindley about the issue. YMMV on all that :-)
I admit I'm a good rationalizer, but I think the
evidence we have is that Bruce is miles away from
Lindley on this, although it must be admitted that
his personal feelings *could* be very similar.

someone else responded

Thanks for posting this, Ron. It is interesting, assuming that
Lindley really wrote it. Someone on rmas who said they were an artist
expressed the same feeling about having their art proliferated
without their permission. It makes sense for someone who creates art
to want to have some control over it.

A few months ago, someone forwarded me a post from a trading site
for his buddy, Jackson Browne, which alleged that a trader was
approached by lawyers (in love?) representing Browne to cease and
desist or else. I've never heard a follow up, but they did
supposedly shut down all trading at that site. I quit posting ISO's
for Browne on rmas, but maybe I should add Lindley. Glad I have what
I do of his. :o)

Bruce Content: if you have the Darkness Outtakes, that's DL playing
violin on Factory.

susan
D-drive-less in, CO

And she responded again in another post

it IS interesting. i agree with susan's position about not
alienating as well as BS's NOT being so agreeable at the same time.
i also concur with joe's take that it IS flattering, and I might add,
downright devotional in a great way. The people know :)

Person labled A. responded again (excellent thougths)

I can't see anyone ever arguing against his right to
an opinion - or even his right to enforce it by legal
means. The question that needs to be addressed,
however, is not one of rights but of the relationship
with the people who support your work and come to see
your shows. If he wants to be hard-nosed about it and
send lawyers after his fans, it's certainly his right
to do so. The fan has NO rights in that respect. But
an artist who appreciates that support MUST address
the shades of gray and wrestle with the question of
whether his fans deserve some slack for being so
supportive. Like the record companies, the artists
themselves are faced with the question of how emerging
technology affects their business and their art,
and being cocky and dismissive isn't, imo, the most
intelligent way to address those issues. There will
always be those who record shows, or burn even official
releases, without regard to the artist's feelings.
No amount of bluster will ever stop that, and ways
will be found around attempts to do so, technology
being what it is. Reality means artists coming to terms
with that and looking for ways to work with their fans
who take advantage of technology, rather than against
them.

If I were you, I'd copy parts of this thread you thought
relevant, or make your own comments about your enjoyment
of booted material of his, tell him it DID lead you to
buying some official product of his (enclose a receipt <g>)
and make a donation anyway as thanks for the music you
traded for, despite his having said it wasn't about
the lost revenue - after all, it's better thanks than
just a letter, and bolsters the argument that the boots
have made you a fan of his work.

The removal of his work from your trading list is a
matter for your own conscience. If it makes you feel
better, do it - and tell him so, but with regrets
that trading partners of yours might never come
to discover his work, as you did via the same avenue.

Mike

Yes, that was clear from the initial post, Ron.
However, it certainly makes a nice departure point
for discussing attitudes we can be sure many artists
have toward unauthorized recordings, and if I read
your subsequent posts correctly, gave you reason
to question keeping his work on your trade list
(unless I confused you with someone else here).
Genuine or not, the note has impact and relevance :-)

Mike

I wrote back to Mike

hi mike,

thanks for the post. very interesting. I might actually use your
excellent suggestion.

regards,

ron